There are deaf/hh people I know who grew up with SEE with their parents learning the English visual language. I'd say those deaf kids were lucky to have parents willing to sign as part of the visual communication effort than to rely on audition alone (i.e. speaking/listening). The oral and aural route may be a difficult route to take even though many kids have fared well while others didn't and that signing would've been helpful. It also could have easily been no signing (ie. SEE, ASL, PSE, manual alphabet, LOVE, etc) whatsoever with no visual form of communication (including CUED speech) and just rely on their hearing aids only and do the whole oral/aural gambit instead. But luckily for them a visual language (e.g. SEE) was used to communicate and thus a foundation was indeed built. It may or may not have been a solid foundation but at least a foundation nonetheless.
Many SEE kids who are now adults show their gratefulness for their parents' contribution on establishing a visual communication effort with them. It could've been a lot worse. It could've been no signing at all. Although I noticed some adults who grew up with SEE developed a certain disdain towards their own upbringing by their parents on the SEE usage simply because their parents didn't use ASL in the first place. How droll. How about at least show some kind of gratitude instead of being a snotty person about the whole affair and stop with this misguided anger towards parents for providing SEE instead of ASL? Signing in SEE became a familiar affair for those growing up with English visual language and because of that it helped those make the transition over from SEE to PSE or to ASL in a much more familiar environment as opposed to deaf/hh people who have never signed in SEE, PSE or ASL at all.
Be thankful you were exposed very early to SEE which is visual form of the English language rather than having no visual language at all.
Just ...... stop whining about SEE.
Thursday, June 28, 2012
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25 comments:
Thank you for addressing this issue, Mike.
SEE is grounded from the root words of ASL. (Isn't it interesting that the alphabet and many root words and the word order are based on French Sign Language, yet we call it American Sign Language?) The word order may be different, and, while most may drop the small words "if, and, but" etc. the general concept can be followed. My favorite thought about SEE is that most of those who are proficient with SEE are the most proficient with reading. Along those lines, captions can help with reading skills. The area where I am from, we used mostly SEE, but dropped the little words.
There is a lot of discrimination among some deaf toward other deaf for having different dialects or variations with the signs. It shouldn't be this way. It's no different from going to other parts of the US and having different vernacular, accents. When I lived in Europe, for the most part, if one was making an effort to communicate with someone from another culture or country, there was respect and acceptance. Language infractions were overlooked because the effort was being put forth to converse.
Having said all that, we should respect the choices our parents made for us while we were growing up. Though we may feel they did a disservice, we must remember that they did the best with what they knew at the time. We know more now than we did then. As Maya Angelou says, "When we know better, we do better."
What if it was us, making choices for our children. We are doing the best we can with what we know. Do we want them to someday come to us and disrespect us for the choices we made with good intentions for them when we made those choices at that time? Would we want our children holding that against us? We should not do this to our parents, either.
Communication can take a lot of effort; we should not make it even more difficult. It is what binds us together, forms relationships and ends isolation.
You are completely discounting the way the brain processes a visual langauage, and therefore, the problems created by using MCEs for communication. The MCEs are limited in use, and are found to be most effective when used within those limitations, eg as teaching tools, not for overall communication.
Xpressive Hands: first of all, if you are distorting either version of SEE by leaving out words and ignoring the very facets of the mode that define it, you are not using SEE. You are using PSE. But your testimony to your own use, and the fact that you do not use it as intended, is proof positive that it is cumbersome and ineffective as a communication choice. If you were attempting to write English, would you make the same ommissions you admit to making when attemptint to sign English? How can it be effective for making English visable when you are not doing just that. You are not making Eglish visable at all when you distort SEE. You are using ASL in English word order; better known as PSE. No different that attempting to communicating in French, but destroying the language by placing everything into English word order, or vice versa. SEE does not improve reading skills. Reading improves reading skills. If SEE or PSE or any the MCEs were effective in improving reading skills, we would have seen a huge increase in reading levels of deaf students during the many years that TC was the educational environment for the majority. We actually have seen declines in reading skills since ASL was removed from the classroom and denied to deaf children as an available language.
Yes, communication takes effort. And trying to take a language that perfectly suits the visual way the brain processes information, and change it to something that is more difficult to process visually, as is done with all of the MCEs creates even more difficulty.
ASL does not have "words". ASL uses kinesthetic symbols to communicate a concept. While a sign can be interpreted to a word symbol that represents a same or similar concept, it still is an interpretation between symbols.
We call it American Sign Langauage because it has evolved specifically to meet the communication needs of the deaf in American culture. It is not FSL, nor is it any other manual language used in any other country. It is American Sign Language. Of course it has it's roots in older forms of language, just as English words have are entymologically derived from Greek and Latin, and any number of other languages.
There is no doubt that you are "doing the best with what you know." However, the point is, you need to increase your knowledge so that you are able to do better, not rely on ignorance and call it perfection.
XHs,
You're right about that. Parents did the best they could do based on the available information 30 to 40 years ago. There were no internet or large support groups like the very effective Hands and Voices to turn to. Pretty appalling to see some deaf people still angry at their parents for using SEE at the time rather than be appreciative of the fact that they had full visual communication access to the English language.
My sister Deaf sister is required to use SEE when she taught at a mainstreamed elementary school in Richmond, California She is fluent in ASL, having taught previously at CSDF, Gallaudet and elsewhere. It all depends on the school system itself. It is more convenient to teach near home than to commute on Bart to Freemont.
deafened people get the worst of all worlds really. no system is designed for them or HI youth. You choose A or B regardless if either function as an aid to communication if you are on your own. The whole system is either a sop to deaf culture or an attempted antidote to it. I don't care if it is SEE/BSL or flags so long as it works and not interested in the semantics of it, the only value in anything to us, is IF it works for us. The whole aspect of the social thing divides us ALL regardless what we use. Roll on assimilation.
I really don't understand why people fuss over SEE , PSE or ASL. Who care? It is just sign language I called American Sign Language. That is way of communicate to use. I rather to watch closed caption on big screen TV at Marlins Park game than watch hard core ASL signer who sign Star Spangled Banner song.
SEE allowed me to think phonetically despite my profound deafness since birth.
I am truly grateful I wasn't raised with ASL.
SEE does not allow you to think phonetically. LOL
What about the other comments you evidently aren't going to post? Do you have a problem with accurate information?
Anony @11:37 PM,
Not sure what you're talking about. Other comments? I check the spam folder...nothing there. What accurate info are you talking about?
Klort, what you said is interesting. Some people do process information the way you are trying to describe. Early scientist erroneously thought that if a person didn't speak or hear, they couldn't think. They believed that in order to think, one had to have spoken language. They did not understand that language and understanding aren't just in the form of words, but pictures and symbols as well. Many hearing people, and people who could once hear, "hear" the words in their heads when they think and reason, each and every word, just as if they are reading a book or speaking. Most deaf people think in pictures and the language of sign, if they have learned sign at all. Some people actually even hear, speak and sign in their dreams. Generally, we think and dream with pictures, words, signs, our main language being dominant. The brain is an amazing piece of equipment that adapts and multitasks and works in ways we don't yet fully understand. It's interesting that people who are highly skilled with the language of math can see an equation in their mind and work out a problem without using pencil and paper or a calculator. Musicians can see and hear a movement of music in the form of musical notes in their mind etc. Our brains learn to adapt to what we use the most. I can understand how a person who is a huge reader would think along the lines as if they are reading a book, and "hearing" in the form of the phonetics if that was what the brain was trained to do. Our brains are like computers, constantly taking in information and adapting, processing, and we continue to learn. We all learn differently, we all have different skills. We have different ways of communicating, and not one form fits all.
I'm sure SEE does allow me to think phonetically. I think in words, I think in syllables, and I get to sign the same way it is written. I don't think in pictures or words.
LOL, you lose.
Klort:
SEE is not related to phoneme or morpheme breakdown of words. CS or Visual Phonics is. Which is it...do you think in words or do you not think in words? You have claimed to do both. Just because you are "thinking in words" doesn't mean you are "thinking phonetically". SEE does not break words down into phonemes. The signs represent a concept represented by a similar concept that can also be represented by an English word. The problem in SEE is the literal translation to sign, rather than the conceptual translation to sign. That is why it is so terribly confusing as a communication tool, and should be limited to a teaching tool only. And even then, only for very specific teaching.
Xpressive hands: all language is composed of symbols. A spoken word is nothing more than a symbol that represents a concept. The word is not the thing any more than the sign is the thing. It is simply a representation of that thing that allows us to discuss it in abstraction.
And for future information, there is not a part of the brain devoted to learning to read or to reading. Many different areas are involved in the task. And the analogy of a brain being similar to a computer has been denounced given newer research into neuropsychology.
Mike: re: what other post: the quite lengthy post that was made prior to those most recently published.
anony@ 1:02
I saw no other "lengthy post." My advice to you is to write your response on Wordpad or something similar and save it, and then copy and paste your response into the comment box. That way if it doesn't get through you can try and post it again. I have learned over the years that Blogger.com isn't always perfect.
SEE has worked pretty well for Singapore's Deaf community, who voluntarily chose it as a community in the 70's to supplant Chinese Sign Language and oralism as the main mode of instruction and communication. It seems to do pretty well for them, despite the ongoing discrimination against Deaf people there.
Can't say the same for the American Deaf, but those who say that SEE is "confusing" are speaking purely subjectively from their own POV, and those who say SEE is "useless" clearly have no idea what they're talking about, or haven't seen the evidence that proves them otherwise.
SEE was used extensively in the 1970's here in the States, as well, B.BarNavi. And after 40 years of trying to invent the wheel, all research shows is that it is not effective except in very limited applications. In fact, reading levels actually decreased according to standardized testing scores.
"Doing pretty well" is not good enough. Linguistic equality is good enough.
What evidence might that be? Citations, please. There are reams and reams of research on the MCEs that proves them unsatisfactory for language acquisition and linguistic fluency. Their effectiveness is limited to teaching grammar of the English language.
Here is some great food for thought:
http://thecommonroomblog.com/2012/03/a-language-for-thinking.html
You link cannot be found, Xpressive Handsz. And, any language is for thinking.
Found the blog after much searching. Took me awhile to wade through all of the rambling, judgement, and name calling, not to mention cultural insensitivity. But I finally made it to the last paragraph or two, and saw the connection.
Couple of things. We have known for decades that children have an innate capacity to acquire language. This holds true for all children.
There is not just one part of the brain in which these innate capacities exist. The brain does not become "stunted". The brain retains plasticity throughout the life span.
There are numerous consequences to a child being language delayed, this is true. It is not just the language delay that is the issue: it is all the cognitive processes, virtually all of them, that rely on language.
However, SEE is not the way to prevent language delays in deaf children. It is the way to confuse a child's brain and comprehension by asking them to process what should be presented in a manner conducive to visual processing in an aural format. You want to prevent language delays in deaf children? Stop trying to re-invent the wheel. ASL is a complete and rich language that has evolved to meet the needs of visual processing in a particular population. Let them acquire language in a natural manner through ASL. Then use those skills to teach them a second language.
Since I also think phonetically whilst signing in SEE, it is a great tool. That cannot be accomplished using ASL. Me finish go store or I went to the store. And I do think phonetically, trust me on this. I think in syllables, not words.
Xpressive Handz -
My literacy skills would be adversely affected if I was raised using ASL. It's all about constant exposure to the English language be it at home, at school, or around the neighborhood. For those raised using ASL, exposure to structured English is an hour a day in the classroom. Hearing people listen all the time and that clearly helps. As a kid, being constantly exposed to English was important. I was born profoundly deaf and didn't even wear hearing aids. I dropped out of high school. I never finished a book. Yet, I'm perfectly literate.
I still can "hear" the words since I have my own interpretation of sound. Growing up, a lot would talk to me rather than use sign language. Phonetic appreciation of the English language, be it by sound or "interpretation" of sound, is important. Apparently some people think they know how I think and claim I think in pictures. Heh.
klort
Now, SEE,(pun intended) we we just needed that to be explained in a manner we could all understand. :-)Thanks for expounding further on that..
Thank you, EVERYONE.
I wonder if Klort, by saying s/he thinks in words phonetically, was referring to the suffixes, affixes, and prefixes that SEE attaches to ASL signs. also, in the way that specific concepts, such as group or class, are differentiated by their first letter "g" and "c," respectively. People who use SEE, and are proficient in it, go to great lengths to make all the parts of English visible. of course, not everyone who uses SEE is proficient in it, but that doesn't mean that SEE is a bad thing.
Once again, I'm seeing the debate about the benefits of ASL, SEE, and PSE as an "all or nothing" logical fallacy. As a language for instruction and social communication, ASL works for some people. SEE works for other people. PSE works for other people. All three forms of sign communication failed some people. there is no single method that "works" for everybody regardless of hearing status. Not even ASL. ("Works" is defined as developing proficiency in English. Almost anyone can become proficient in ASL, but it doesn't guarantee that proficiency in English will follow.) Even Deaf people who grew up in Deaf families and have ASL as their first language still use ASL in English word order from time to time. There's nothing wrong with that, just like there's nothing wrong with using SEE.
The important thing here is that parents who used SEE to communicate DID communicate with their child from an early age. it really doesn't matter what form of signing was used. If language developed, and proficiency in English developed, then I would call that success.
I personally know several successful Deaf adults who were educated using SEE throughout their education, and are now using ASL and teaching at - gasp! Fremont!
A Different Anonymous
anony @ 8:56 AM,
Exactly. ASL is for everybody. So is SEE. So is PSE. Whatever works for them. It is the same adage that there is no one size fits all method here. Each of our brain respond differently to inputs and how we use them well which is why preferences are built that best suit the signer.
The 8:56 Anonymous...
Thinking phonetically... that would include the suffixes, affixes, and prefixes. I have never worn hearing aids because I'm completely deaf but when I think, I don't see words, I hear words instead. I also speak as well and can speak Spanish too. In fact, I have a slight Spanish accent.
Being constantly exposed to English was the answer for me. I never was an avid reader and I've never read a single book in my entire life. Oh, how I hated reading with intense passion!
For some folks, reading helped. Some swear by Cued Speech. My elementary school was one of the pioneers in using SEE and it was successful. The principal for that school was deaf and was the one who pushed for SEE. Bless his heart.
I went to CSDR for a year and was mortified at the simplicity of the education materials. All the words on the chalkboard was what I knew five years ago. It was pathetic. And that was after skipping a year and being placed in the "smart" class. What a joke! Needless to say, I didn't last very long and went back to Orange County.
Funny, I know several raised with SEE and now teaching in Fremont. If SEE was that successful, why can't they go back and use it? Is it because of the stigma associated with SEE?
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